[00:00:00] Speaker A: They are one of the biggest sleeping giants probably in the sector and at some point they're going to try to expand aggressively in the water sector.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: I am Reece Tisdall and this is the future of water, which we talk about all the way switch Companies, utilities and people are addressing the challenges and opportunities in water.
This is episode 112. That's 1, 1, 2. And I know it's going to be a good one. That's because this time I'm going to be joined by Antonio Del Olmo, senior analyst at Barcelona, to talk about the impact and outlooks for Spanish engineering firms in the water sector. So if you're not familiar with water, a host of companies from Spain have essentially exerted their significant influence on the water market over the past couple decades. So from Spain to Mexico to the Middle east to other parts of the world, including the us they've carved out positions that are definitely worth watching. And over the time this has not come without changes, whether it be M and a new market entry and so forth. But this is why I wanted to bring Antonio into the discussion, hear about his insights into these companies and where they may be heading and what their impacts are overall. But before I do that, you're going to have to bear with me just a little bit and let me talk about what caught my attention recently. This is a repeat of last time, unfortunately, but I'm going to give it to you just another reminder. Bluefield Research will be at Aquatac Amsterdam 3-11-14, so make sure to stop by the booth. That's 11.318, if I'm reading that correctly, and meet a number of Bluefield experts, water experts, that is, including my upcoming guest, Antonio Del Olmo. He'll be there as well. So what's caught my attention this past week, Badger Meter's $185 million acquisition of Smartcover expands its blue Edge suite. So that's going to include real time sewer and lift station monitoring and then also just further expand Badger Meter's presence in the smart water management market, if you will. With Smart covers 35 million in annual revenues and ongoing expertise in sewer level sensors, predictive analytics and stormwater management, the deal really does position Badger Meter to drive further municipal adoption of its digital wastewater solutions. I mean, at its core and heart of it all is the metering business, but over the past couple of years it has been building out. So why does this matter for the water sector? Really? To get to my thoughts, that is. By our account, there are approximately, I think our team said it to me the other day, 21 million manhole covers in the U.S. so that's a huge addressable market. But let's be honest, the reality is, is that Smart Cover value is only a slice of that because it's specific for certain needs, certain LOC and what I would call water market niches, if there are any. So it's worth keeping that in mind. But nonetheless, there's definitely Runway for growth. The acquisition also strengthens Badger Meter's recurring revenue streams through software and support devices or services. This will also leverage Badger Meter's extensive sales network which should help scale Smart Cover's market leading solutions.
But it'll be interesting, I guess the real take, and my real thought on this is, Tom. It'll be interesting to see how Badger manages Smart Cover through its own sales channels. Badger has a strong direct to market sales strategy where Smart Cover has traditionally gone through distribution channels. In fact, I believe it's working with core and main. So it'll be interesting to see how that changes if at all over time. It'll take a little while to sort of work its way through the transition process, but so it's worth keeping an eye on that. And then lastly, it's just worth noting that Badger, through a couple deals that it acquired Telug a couple years ago, it obviously has Smart Cover. It's just done other deals over the past four to five years. It is in some respects made at the envy of the water sector. I can't tell you how many times that clients and companies come to us asking just about Badger and how they're doing it, you know, and what is their overall strategy look like going forward. So if you're not up to speed on what Badger Meter, which is a Milwaukee based company, if you're not up to speed on them, it's worth taking a look at them. And if you have any questions, you can always reach out to us at Bluefield Research. So with that being said, let's get to Antonio Del Olmo and talk about what's happening in Spain.
All right, so I'm joined here by Antonio Del Olmo. Antonio, how's it going?
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Hi there. Thank you for having me. It's nice to be here.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: Yeah. First, first time on the future of water. So I'm gonna take advantage of this opportunity. I did this not long ago with Megan Bondar who is on the podcast as well. One of you. For all the listeners out there, let's give them a little idea who you are, where you are. I'll let you start.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm based in Spain. I work closely with our team in Barcelona. I'm a senior analyst at Bluefield. Over 10 years experience in the water sector, particularly with water utilities. My primary focus at Bluefield includes digital water, European market and M and a nice.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: So pretty big what I would say a pretty wide or big purview. But I know the Europe team's building out a lot of content and a lot of different directions.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah, we are many of different stuff and I mean this market, it's evolving all the time and the landscape's always changing. So it's exciting.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: One of the, you know, as we were talking, we were actually in a meeting earlier this week. We were talking corporate strategies and what's happening in water. And the discussion about GS and NEMA came up which GS Enema, which I guess is Anima, originally out of Spain, they were acquired by GS Engineering a while back. And so what I was hoping is they're on the block and it seems like the deal is sort of moving forward or progressing at least. So I thought we'd maybe start with that and talk a little bit about what is that deal, who is Anema and who's the potential buyer is and what are some of the considerations when it comes to that.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah, so this deal is something that has been. There has been talks about this deal for several years already when GS bought Inima Korean company, I guess people know about it already. The talks began a little bit when GS started having some financial stress, particularly over an incident that happened in South Korea that they were held accountable for.
There has been several talks right now about TAKA and Quebec's pension fund looking to buy GS in ema which there has also been talks about some other water companies which have dropped from the process.
So right now GS in EMA is one of the biggest players, one of the. I'd say one of the oldest Spanish companies in this helenization. Very consolidated in the Middle east and they are even consolidating themselves even further with certain contract wins that they had recently, particularly one in Portugal for the Algarve desalinization plant. So I think of these operation as a chance for. I mean obviously the bidders have different goals. Like TAKA is actively investing in global water assets right now, particularly those with strong desalinization experience alongside with energy related projects. Well, Quebec, I think their investment is completely. Quebec's pension fund. I mean their investment is completely different in the sense that they're thinking more on a long term asset management strategy. My guess is that they're aiming for more stable yields rather than outright sector dominance.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's super interesting. I mean one that you sort of said exactly that Anema or GS Enema now has a really strong presence in the Middle east because of the desalination market. Taka, which is it's really a state owned or government controlled company within the United Arab Emirates. So they have a big position. They obviously own significant capacity of desalination in integrated water and power plants as well. And then the second part of that is the other bidder, a Quebec pension plan or pension fund, we have seen those players. There are a number of them, whether it be Ontario pension plan. We've seen cdpq, we've seen others. PGGM I think, I guess is a pension fund as well out of Europe. But the Canadian ones in particular, they have owned assets or positions in desalination plants in places like Australia. I think they've also owned some positions in water utilities in the uk.
So it's interesting to sort of see them. And I think you're exactly right. They're looking for a long term stable market. I mean that's what pension plans are in many respects are all about. And so they're looking for long term, relatively conservative returns. So if they can get in on this, kind of makes sense.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And you have to think also on GS and EMA potential for expansion. Right. I mean they're obviously still very present in the desalinization arena but. But their potential for growth in Latin America is huge as well. They're already positioned in Brazil which is going to be publishing several public private partnership PPP contracts and the Spanish market as well. So it's a perfect platform for DACA to increase further their presence and Quebec's pension fund to increase their presence in global water assets.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah, so I mean maybe that's a good segue because it's one of my questions for you is GS and EMA is really just one part of the puzzle, right? I mean when we started talking about this it was by GS and ema, but then it broadened into what about the other Spanish water engineering companies? There are a host of them that do to your point, they have a strong presence in other markets, not only the Middle East, Latin America, from Brazil to Mexico and elsewhere. And so if we look at these engineering companies, whether it be Acciona, FCC or a Qualia, their water business, Tidagua, which is now owned by Vinci Federal, Sasir and then I guess we'll include Cox, which is or thinks Cox Abengoa, I Think is what they're called now, formerly avengoa.
Let's talk a little bit about their global strategies. How are they expanding? What are their positions? Are they similar to animas? Are they doing anything different?
[00:11:07] Speaker A: I think the common denominator for all of these Spanish engineering companies goes back to the construction boom that happened before the financial crisis. And when that happened in 2008, they started diversifying their portfolio.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: So you have to think about these companies and I mean, they're very big players because I say this to a lot of my colleagues, but the whole GDP of Spain was being pumped into these types of companies. Right. With all the developments and retail investments in infrastructures in Spain. So when the financial crisis began, they started shifting their market and looking at other areas to grow. And that was water. Right. That was an obvious choice for them.
So many of these companies, and especially Spain, was one of the first movers with desalinization plans with a Spanish government initiative. And these companies leverage that experience to grow internationally.
Spain was one of the biggest footholds for them and they started winning and being awarded contracts in the Middle east like the ones we're talking about.
Tadawa was able to secure contracts in huge desalination plants, just as GS Cinema and Dactheona. So right now those players took different paths.
Telawa was formerly owned by acs, a very big construction company. And ACS decided to sell to Vinci because they divested in the water sector to invest and focus more on their core business of construction. Vinci, on the other hand, wanted to strengthen its position in water treatment and desalinization.
However, if you think about companies like Ferrovial or Satir or Aqualia, they didn't have that need for divesting and they have continued to grow and their markets of preference have obviously been the US and Canada, that's for sure. And Latin America, I guess that Spain is very close to Latin America and it has been an obvious geography for Spanish companies to expand to.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's. I just know that, you know, whether it be Axiona in Mexico City building the. I think. Is it the largest wastewater treatment plant in the world or one of them? Yeah, Exeunt has been involved with, and I know that a quality. In fact, you know, they have a stronger position in South America and they've been sort of moving in and out of there. But also one thing unique about equality as well is they also own, they have concessions or utilities themselves. So they're in a little bit of, a little bit different position than Some of the others where they're primarily on the engineering design side of the equation. Equality does have utilities itself. The other thing is that Equality has just recently entered the U.S. we know that they were trying for a while. They acquired, I believe it's MDs in Texas doing O and M. They've been trying to get into O and M in the US Whether that's a spearhead to, you know, bigger and better things, we'll see how that plays out. But I know that was a, a relatively, you know, big move.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the rest of the companies are trying to mimic what A Qualia is doing. So as you said, Aqualia is doing engineering projects all around the world and they of course have their concessions as well. So they are traditional water utility as well. They play that role as well.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Are.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: Also trying to do the same thing. So Aqualia obviously is now trying to enter the U.S. i don't think, or it wouldn't come as a surprise is the other companies are trying to push as well to enter the US market.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think Federal Real has had some success in Texas as well, building projects. So what I think, you know, just even stepping back to your point about where they came from, it is interesting to kind of see the arc of the Spanish engineering company story where, you know, from 2000, you know, the big build up until the Great Recession, they were high flying, they were getting into renewables, they'd started moving into water, they, you know, were building everything everywhere, incredibly successful and then really just got crushed. The Great Recession really did a number on the Spanish market in a number of ways. And there's been some fallout. You know, whether it be for that reason or just being too aggressive like Avengo went bankrupt soon thereafter and has since been acquired. You already mentioned Tadagua being acquired by, by Vinci. Whether that was for out of sort of necessary convenience or whether they just had to do it. And then I know that FCC at one point, Carlos Slim out of Mexico and I think he took on a stake to kind of carry them forward as far as financially. So it's interesting to kind of see where they are now. Are they in a good spot now from your position or are they still recovering in some, some respects?
[00:16:33] Speaker A: No, I think, I think that that stage of financial distress is already over, obviously, as I said, or you just mentioned, FCC had at some point needed some refinancing and Carlos Slim saw the chance to get inside there. But yeah, right now I think the companies are financially, they're financially strong and their main problem right now is going to be increasing number of competitors. Particularly in my opinion, Veolia is a key player. Going back to the desalinization part. Right. Veolia is going to be always present there and they're one of the biggest players, as you already know. But Chinese companies are also to be taken into account. Right. So they are one of the biggest sleeping giants probably in the sector and at some point they're going to try to expand aggressively in the water sector. They already are. Right. But we are going to be talking about this Chinese firms or Asian firms for that matter, and for sure during the next five to 10 years.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think that's a really interesting point that I hadn't thought so much about, at least for this conversation. But it's true in that there are a number of factors. Who knows what's happening in the U.S. the availability, you know, the soft power of the U.S. is spreading money around the world. Same for Europe as well. And so is there a vacuum that's being created in which the Chinese are filling it with not only construction expertise, state backed construction expertise and financial capabilities, but also want to expand the country's influence around the world. So there's no doubt that that is going to happen. I suspect. I think one other question, I mean, just thinking a little bit about whether where are they? And I'm just sort of thinking about Europe as a whole. We've been talking a bit about, you know, the German market, the impact of energy prices, inflation on the market, all these different, what we would call externalities. On the water market and in this case construction and engineering and design, they are a little bit exposed. I mean, given what's happening in Europe.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: No, I mean the Spanish economy. I think Europe's problems are not so different from that that the US already has. Right. I mean it's not that different. And I think when you think about the economic variables that play a big role in M and A, for example interest rates and the value of the euro or the dollar, I think both the ECB and the Fed try to make it mimic each other more or less in their decisions. But it is true that Europe's economy is particularly prone to have some further financial stress in the future, particularly because of the debt, the percentage of debt over GDP that the countries are having right now, plus many other factors like the energy independence of Europe from Russia or Algeria. Right. From natural gas and all this conversations that we keep having and that in the European Union. So the European Union is right now in A crossroads. Right. And there are very serious doubts on whether or not Germany particularly is going to be able to turn around the situation because it's, it's a tough spot to be on with rising inflation like I saw yesterday, the unemployment rates, especially youth unemployment rates, and they're, they're huge still. So that's not something that's going to go away quickly. And yeah, the exposure of the, all these companies to the European market, it's, it's quite the, it's, it's huge. Right. I mean, we're talking about maybe 50% of their business. So yeah, they're very exposed.
[00:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think to that point, I mean, or at least adding to the, to the pain is things like defense spending. You know, depending on what happens with the U.S. administration having to pay for, you know, NATO, you know, every country is a little bit different as far as what their obligations are. And I think they're real concerned about that and also just concerned about the US but that being said, if Europe is at risk or sort of their, the headwinds are building for these engineering companies, whether it be in Spain or on the European continent, then it makes all the more sense that they're looking elsewhere, whether it be the US which economically to date is, feels like a bit of a meteor that we're all hanging onto for dear life. It's kind of crazy how well it's done even through Covid. But then the Middle east, right. There's desalination projects. They're big. I mean, these are hundreds and hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollar size projects which you know, at this point it's a pretty consolidated group of players who actually play in that market. And most of the Spanish engineering companies are there. So that's an opportunity. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Latin America economically and sort of as far as infrastructure build out. And I know some of them been dabbling in Asia as well and that might be a bit of a tougher market.
So. Well, you know, while we're talking a little bit about it, I mean, or maybe just think about the future growth and the challenges for these companies. I mean, where, you know, we've got the GS and EMA who had sort of, they talked about an IPO at one point. Now it looks like they're about to be acquired.
Where are these companies? Where do you see them heading, thinking about their strategies and you have any thoughts on that?
[00:22:44] Speaker A: I think the US market is going to be a tough one, especially with the change in administration right now. With Trump trying to, I'd say FOSTER More the U.S. companies. Right. So that's going to be a tough one for them. Latin America, on the other hand, I think that the potential for growth there is huge. I think that's the, that's going to be the main focus for a Spanish company. I mean, the language barrier alone, that it's non existent for Spanish companies there, it's going to be, I think it's a driving factor, you know, and, and you have to think also that the, from a geopolitical point of view, Spanish government is very well connected with the Latin American countries. So I think it's only logical that that would be where these companies can grow the most. That's my view. And they're obviously going to try to keep leveraging and keep growing and I'd say hedging against geopolitical factors. Right. So you try to expand to other markets as much as you can, but the focus is going to continue.
In my opinion, it's going to be Latin America, probably Middle east as well.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Right. I think one interesting thing that came up recently, and it's just in the back of my mind also we're doing some work on California specifically. I did see that Axiona is doing the design of, I think the only Desal plant that's sort of moving forward, the Doheny desalination plant in Dana Point, California. It's only 18,000 cubic meters, so it's not that big. But they've partnered with J.R. falan, which was. I don't want to. Maybe it's the scale of it that works because typically whether it be Carlsbad or whether it be the Corpus Christi plant, it's companies like Kiawit and IDE Technologies, the Israeli company that have moved forward or won those projects. So it's interesting to see that happening. So you know, Axiona, you hear about them in the US but not in great, you know, great leaps and bounds. I don't know of another way to put it.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. And I think that the way that they're going to penetrate the US market is establishing partnerships with well established players in the US that's the way to go. You remove the friction, you know, to providers, suppliers, government contacts. I mean, it's a win win. You bring, you can bring to the table your expertise in diesel in the Middle east or worldwide, basically in the water sector. And you also have like local partner profiting from that. That is a great message to send in the U.S. i think, I think.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: When we Got into this at Bluefield. So we started in 2013. And you know, we came, my partners and I, we came from the renewable energy space. We'd done a lot of work there. So we'd done a lot of work with, quite honestly, all of these companies because they were active in, whether it be wind or solar or other renewable development projects. I mean, in some cases they're developing their own projects in Europe, in North America and elsewhere. I thought there would be more of a.
They would be able to bridge the gap between renewables and water. And, you know, that could have been biogas, that could have been just finding ways to, you know, when it came to energy efficiency, energy capture could, you know, going forward in the future. Is hydrogen at play? I know like ibedrolo, the renewable power company and. Or renewable developer out of Spain as well. They, you know, they're interested in things like hydrogen. Why won't these. I don't know if the, if it's the market demand and they're not able to do it or if it's. They're just not all aligned. They're different groups and they're able to pull that off. That's what I was hoping for. I don't know if you've seen any of that in Spain or the rest of Europe.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: You mean like trying to bring together renewable energy with desalination or other water processes, you mean?
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah, all of the above. Just being creative to take a. They're successful in both. Right. And they. But they seem to be operating in these silos, like I said. Maybe it's just the market demand itself.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: I think that going back to desalinization, I mean, energy is the driving cost of water. Right. So there are a lot of efforts to move into more sustainable or more efficient ways to produce drinking water.
But yeah, it is true that the energy department of Aktheona is probably not talking too much to the desalinization department of Aktheona. Right. There are kind of two silos, two different silos. And there is a chance there. I mean, water and energy are very much connected. I mean, if you think about just pumping water and how much energy does it cost to lose a cubic meter of water in a water supply network? It's obvious. Right. But the problems can only be tackled against when you have a big scale with scale. So California, for example, as you pointed out, would be great for that.
There's water scarcity. And water scarcity usually means that water is more expensive. That makes even more attractive to save water and to save energy I think the trend as you mentioned in the future has to be to shift into more sustainable solutions and energy is going to play a crucial role there.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: Yeah, so I, it's just one of these things that's been driving me crazy because I'm not going to lie, I've always thought that would be a big opportunity. We've looked at it in a number of different ways and I know, you know, you can't just have a solar farm powering a diesel plant because there's not enough, there's not enough generation to supply the treatment process. It is really energy intensive. That being said, thought there would be more activity, more focus on things like biogas because they understand renewable development, they understand feed in tariffs, they understand incentives. But you know, I thought it would align with what their broader strategy was. So it doesn't seem to be the case with, except, you know, for a few exceptions. So when we look at these companies, I think maybe this is sort of like a final question for you when it comes to the engineering companies.
What are your takeaways? What are a couple things that you know, maybe to reinforce what you've said or anything else that you haven't said that listeners should know about.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Well, I guess the primary takeaway is the Spanish companies remain decentralization leaders despite changes in ownership. Right. That's when they continue to be like very innovative. They, they are integrating like renewable energy or they're increasingly focused on being more efficient in desalinization.
If you look at the water sector as a whole, many Spanish companies are looking to grow abroad right now they're looking to, for US expansion in Latin America. I think that the conversation around them is going to be about how they're going to structure their oper in the US and Latin and South America. That's my guess.
That would be the two biggest takeaways. Obviously the move we're waiting for, the move on the buyout of GS Cinema, that would be when I hope that the details of the deal get disclosed at some point and we can comment further on that. Right?
[00:30:52] Speaker B: Yeah, It'll be interesting to see if it is Taka and I think it aligns with them. And I think one thing I think you mentioned this is that Taka is pushing a bit harder, definitely within the Mideast region, but will even go further and to what extent leveraging its capabilities like I said. I mean I think like anything, if you're building a decile plant who you go to the first, there are a couple calls that you're probably going to Make a couple of them are going to be to Spanish engineering companies that have the demonstrated experience.
It all scales. You're probably going to reach out to Veolia as well, because they've done it a number of times, reach out to ide. So I think that's interesting. Is there. Are they doing anything when it comes to digital that you know of? Do they. If you. Do, you know if they've carved out any specific digital strategies?
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, investment in digital is. It's increasingly important, especially in the European Union with. I mean, there's also a funding program in the European Union happening right now to digitalize the water sector. So all the companies involved in water concessions and O and M contracts are looking to digitalize almost everything, I'd say. So everything going from meters to censoring of wastewater treatment plants to desalination as well. These companies are doing the implementation of many of these projects right now. So they're going to. If history serves as a lesson to what is going to happen in the future, you're going to probably see many European companies gaining a lot of experience in implementing these types of solutions and gaining leverage to implement them worldwide when the time comes.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a key part is while we're talking about engineering companies and our colleague Mike Miroff is actually putting together sort of an annual analysis of global engineering companies. What are their strategies, how are they positioning, how are they restructuring, are they buying, are they selling, et cetera, et cetera. So looking at their sort of strategic positions. But one key part of these engineering companies, whether they be Spanish or elsewhere, they are gatekeepers to the market. They really influence decisions at utilities or even within industrial facilities. They're the ones who they. Because they design the systems. And so if they design the systems, they're basically able to spec out what they need or what they prefer. And so that's why they are this sort of a hurdle that vendors oftentimes have to cross that creates a bit of frustration in their determining do we go straight to the engineering companies and work closely with them and partner with them, or do we do and try to do an end to end and go direct to customer? Which didn't always work either. So it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, particularly when it comes to digital. That's a common theme that digital vendors talk about. So with that being said, I'm going to let you go. But before I do that, as always, do what.
What are you working on these days that the listeners should know about?
[00:34:11] Speaker A: Well, as you mentioned, we're having internally a lot of talks about Europe right now, German market, how everything's evolving, the economic landscape, how it's changing Right now. It's hard to keep up to date because every day there's something new going on. Also we will be attending Aquatech in March. We're preparing that a lot internally. So if you want to meet with us, we'll be there for sure.
Obviously, working on our everyday forecast, we just recently published the European Union digital forecast. Well, not only the European Union, Europe as a whole, it also includes UK and other countries.
So that came out very recently and yeah, working on more exciting stuff and I'm sure it will be interesting for the listeners.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: That digital report is great. It just came out. I think it was published, was it last week, maybe a week and a half ago? It is. I know it's great because it not only does it complement the recently released US Report, but it looks at all the different countries, goes in a lot of granular detail as far as the forecast by segment, by in some cases product. So it's really, really great. I know it went into that and look forward to hearing what not only our clients think, but anybody who's interested.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: I think it's very, very granular, very specific, very. I mean, for almost any company involved with digital, I think it's a must to check it out at least and see where the, what the trends are, what volume are we talking about in terms of money. So I think it's a one stop report that you need to, you just need to have. Right.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: No, I agree. All right, well, I know we've actually, the two of us, we have a host of other meetings coming up, I think later today. So I will be seeing you again shortly. But thanks again, particularly in relative short notice for jumping on the Future order podcast and we'll talk again soon.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: No problem. I hope to, to repeat soon.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: All right, man, take care.
All right, that's a wrap for the 112th episode. So thanks for being part of it and thanks to Antonio for sharing some of his thoughts and it'll be interesting to see how the strategies evolve for these companies through M and A market entry acquisition, et cetera, et cetera. So before we sign off, if you're in Boston, Barcelona, let us know. We'd enjoy the opportunity for a meeting.
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